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Big engine change?

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1 Big engine change? on 4/3/2012, 6:10 pm

bugjammin

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I'm looking to put a bigger engine in my 1500 beetle would I need new wiring loom, clutch, gearbox.? I want to stay aircooled an go as big as I can without modifying any of engine bay.
Any help would be appreciated

2 Re: Big engine change? on 4/3/2012, 7:39 pm

oilyT

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How big do you want to go?. wireing loom will be ok. gearbox/clutch depends on how big your going to go plus your driveing style. smile

3 Re: Big engine change? on 4/3/2012, 7:47 pm

bugjammin

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I want to go around the 2000cc if possible.!? Looking for good motorway cruising speed and having that punch there when needed, with the little adding of showing off.
Glad wiring should be ok cheers. What do you think with rest mate? smile

4 Re: Big engine change? on 4/3/2012, 8:41 pm

Toastie

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modmin
get dickie to build you one


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5 Re: Big engine change? on 4/3/2012, 10:31 pm

bugjammin

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Come to think about it and reading how big an engine mario is doing I want to go big with great acceleration and a decent top speed. Frighten a few cars when I do them at lights. Also want to go down the motorway and 80 be a doddle and wont sound like its bout to go bang!!

6 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 11:57 am

negawskloV

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there's more than one type of 2 litre wink

To get to 2 litre in a type 1 engine, there are two routes; to increase capacity through the bore of the barrels or through the stroke of the crank. In theory you could alter just one of these (stroke or bore) but that wouldn't give the best results and so a combination of the two is the best route.

A stock 1600tp (1585cc) is 69mm stroke crank & 85.5mm bore barrels & pistons. In theory you could keep the stock crank & fit 96mm B&P giving you 1998cc or you could also stick with the stock B&P bore of 85.5 and fit a 86mm (1975cc) or 88mm (2021cc) stroke crank but neither of these will give you the best engine for a bug so as above, a less extreme combination of the two parameters is best.

mine is 2165cc (78mm stroke crank & 94mm bore B&P)... The increased stroke of the crank makes the engine wider but mine didn't require any mods to the engine bay (it's a tight fit though). I'd say in a 60s bug, if I didn't want to cut the engine bay, an 82mm stoke crank is your limit.

Re the wiring loom, no mods are necessary but you may want to up-rate the ignition system to get the most from your new motor. Mine is an MSD6AL multispark with a billet dizzy, blaster coil & 8.5mm plug wires but changing the loom for this is relatively simple. A more modest ignition set-up is simpler still.

I'd recommend a high torque starter motor as the stock one will struggle to turn over the additional mass... also a higher Ah battery will help.

Re the clutch, I'd recommend a minimum kennedy stage 1 pressure plate (1700lb) & if you get over 150bhp, it's worth going for a stage 2 (2100lb). For road use, go for a solid friction disc, 4-pucks are basically just ON/OFF and a nightmare in anything but an all out racer. I use a Daikin Super Disk.

Gearbox wise, it sounds like you want to be able to cruise comfortably at motorway speeds rather than an all out 1/4 mile car... the spec of the gearbox will very much depend on eventual power and what you're using it for. Mine for instance is a nightmare cruising at motorway speeds as it's built for the 1/4 mile...

standard 1303 superbeetle & GT gearbox ratios for 3rd/4th are 1.26 (3rd) & 0.93 (4th) whereas in mine they're 1.48 (3rd) & 1.04 (4th). You need to decide what you want but I'd say standard GT gearbox ratios might suit you better. The rest of the gearbox mods again depend on power & use... mines magnafluxed ring & pinion, Modified Super Beetle Main shaft, 1.48 3rd gear / 1.04 4th (complete with welded & honed hub), Billet Aluminium Side plate, Sway-A-Way Race Axles, Heavy Duty Throw Out Shaft, chromoly Woodruff Keys & held in place with a Gene Berg 643 weld-in Transmission mount.

One last thing to think about are brakes... I'd say as a minimum fit discs up front

Hope that helps smile

7 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 1:46 pm

DICKIE

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Also cost is going to be a massive part of your choice..
My 2007cc motor cost me nearly 4,000 pounds in parts altogether to buy and thats up to me to build but its all brand new off the shelf parts.
Depends on if you want to buy a fully built turnkey or build your own..either way its going to be at least 4k for a new one and possibly half that for secondhand.
Something like a good 1835 with the right cam in it will be plenty in your bug,its not so much the cc's but what sort of cam,heads and head work and carbs your going to run.
Even a good 1776 with the right cam in will get you scaring a few boy racers carzzy


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8 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 2:08 pm

oilyT

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Or just go scuby smile .

9 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 2:15 pm

paddy

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negawskloV wrote: In theory you could keep the stock crank & fit 96mm B&P giving you 1998cc or you

96mm - can you buy barrels and pistons that big and would the head studs need moving ?

10 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 2:42 pm

negawskloV

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paddy wrote:
negawskloV wrote: In theory you could keep the stock crank & fit 96mm B&P giving you 1998cc or you

96mm - can you buy barrels and pistons that big and would the head studs need moving ?

Yep, as you say, you'd need an aftermarket crankcase & heads because of the stud spacing... not cheap!

11 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 2:55 pm

bugjammin

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Thanks guys. smile Im looking around 3k at moment Cashflow wise but that can change for right setup and was thinking turnkey so i can have some sort of warranty on parts. I'm thinking of showing this also,so want it to look good. Any recommendation of suppliers/engine builders.? cheers for info think I kinda understand enough. lol

12 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:03 pm

DICKIE

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bugjammin wrote:Thanks guys. smile Im looking around 3k at moment Cashflow wise but that can change for right setup and was thinking turnkey so i can have some sort of warranty on parts. I'm thinking of showing this also,so want it to look good. Any recommendation of suppliers/engine builders.? cheers for info think I kinda understand enough. lol
For 3k you might have to look for secondhand,i doubt you'll get a decent engine builder to build one for that.
My parts alone were nearly 4k,that includes carbs/exhaust etc..
turnkey big lump is gonna be 5k+ to be built by a builder..


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13 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:16 pm

bugjammin

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Cheers dickie I got a few quid to save yet then! smile
Still as much info I can get right now will help in sussing which engine will suit me best.
And any recommendation of supplier or builder would be great.

14 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:18 pm

Mario

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All good advice up there^^^^^

how ever be aware of the budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And to be honest i wouldnt really advise looking at what im doing......Why?

Simples,because my engine build is going to change in several directions(it already has).......

Budget at 3k wont get you near what im building......my gearbox alone is gonna cost me over £2500...

As a novice building for the 1st time,if i were you (and i started from the same level you are at) is READ about the various engines out there...see what sort of engine 3k would get you......

My engine is basically an extravagance,a toy if you like,BUT,its taken me two YEARS to get to this point.


Are you gonna buy brand new or second hand parts??
You gonna build yourself?

If im honest(and i am) i would question if i would ever do this again.......i new it was gonna be expensive and a massive learning curve....how ever, as a married old twat with a wife to consider,i do feel guilty when i tell her ive just bought my case for 800 notes(ish) or 600 notes on 48 IDA carbs...or 500 notes on crank n flywheel............it is fucking expensive.....but i new that from the start...


Have a long hard think on it.............and be carefull with who you get to build it(if you dont do it yaself)........................what ever way you go,i wish you good luck with it and if can help in anyway i am only a PM away....

Mario


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15 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:24 pm

bugjammin

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Many thanks mario. I def don't want to build myself and no what you mean by budget the more I look around on net and in mags it's so easy to get carried away.
Looking forward to seeing yours built.?!

16 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:24 pm

Mario

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bugjammin wrote:Cheers dickie I got a few quid to save yet then! smile

As the old saying goes................"think of a budget and DOUBLE it"...


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17 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:26 pm

bugjammin

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lol lol

18 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:31 pm

Mario

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bugjammin wrote:Many thanks mario. I def don't want to build myself and no what you mean by budget the more I look around on net and in mags it's so easy to get carried away.
Looking forward to seeing yours built.?!

Im looking forward to seeing mine built too,its been long enough lol lol

Please dont think i am trying to scare you with what i wrote,i am not.....i am just saying it as someone doing it themselves from scratch....


The spec for my engine has changed so much over the 2 yrs......initially i was going 2165 to go in my oval....then i sold the oval and thought fuck it,for an extra 20 odd quid i can change my crank size and there fore cc size....so we end up at 2276..............i did actually consider going even bigger to 2332!!

Plus with mine, ive body swerved turbo for now....hence the 48 ida's......next year how ever its going efi and turbo!!!

So,try to stick with what ever you decide.......cos you will change your mind later lol


In a way i fell into what i call the power trap.....oooh look if i change that little bit then i can get much extra power!!!!!.........

Food for thought for you anyways fella Very Happy


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19 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:32 pm

Mario

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and efi turbo is over 3k!!!!!! :eek: :eek:



FFS do NOT tell my good lady tho lol lol lol


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20 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:38 pm

DICKIE

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you also want to consider how your going to use the car,is it a daily?/,if it is you dont want to be going lairy cam and big turbo cuz it'll be a nightmare to drive in everyday use.ive seen quite a few people sell big motors becuase they're just to lairy..

Good engine builders are about but you need to read a few engine build threads on vzi to find out what names get mentioned.
Stateside engineering in moreton do build up engines but they're normally mentally busy and will cost ya wink
Like bens motor,john maher is a bloody good name in engine building so is john walkett..they are out there..


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21 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:40 pm

negawskloV

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bugjammin wrote:Thanks guys. smile Im looking around 3k at moment Cashflow wise but that can change for right setup and was thinking turnkey so i can have some sort of warranty on parts. I'm thinking of showing this also,so want it to look good. Any recommendation of suppliers/engine builders.? cheers for info think I kinda understand enough. lol

turnkey your budget might just about buy you a 1600... longblock only it'll buy you a 1776 & for near 4k it'll buy you a 2007 but add induction, exhaust & ignition to that & you'll easily double that



22 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:46 pm

negawskloV

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Mario wrote:and efi turbo is over 3k!!!!!! :eek: :eek:



FFS do NOT tell my good lady tho lol lol lol

Things have moved on a fair bit since mine was built (2001) and prices have come down on a lot of performance parts (although prices for stock items like crankcases has doubled) but the total bill for my engine & gearbox from John was around £15k



Last edited by negawskloV on 5/3/2012, 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

23 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:46 pm

Mario

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DICKIE wrote:you also want to consider how your going to use the car,is it a daily?/,if it is you dont want to be going lairy cam and big turbo cuz it'll be a nightmare to drive in everyday use.ive seen quite a few people sell big motors becuase they're just to lairy..

This is a very important point Dickie has made......really it is...



DICKIE wrote:Good engine builders are about but you need to read a few engine build threads on vzi to find out what names get mentioned.
Stateside engineering in moreton do build up engines but they're normally mentally busy and will cost ya wink
Like bens motor,john maher is a bloody good name in engine building so is john walkett..they are out there..


There is one name in this lot you need to be carefull of.......and by that i mean, make sure you know EXACTLY what you want.......and i mean exactly,the patience levels are shit with some folk,which i find rather sad......

and before anyone asks NO i am not gonna name the builder i am on about........if you re-search like i have then it becomes apparent of who i am on about.....


And for gearbox,John is the geezer who will be building mine...top fella who really knows his shit wink


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24 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 3:50 pm

Mario

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negawskloV wrote:
Mario wrote:and efi turbo is over 3k!!!!!! :eek: :eek:



FFS do NOT tell my good lady tho lol lol lol

Things have moved on a fair bit since mine was built (2001) and prices have come down on a lot of stuff but the total bill for my engine & gearbox from John was around £15k



Fuck me Ben 15K :eek: :eek:

Best i make sure you never speak to my wife then lol lol

Actually,now you mention it,i dont think i will be far off that you know :eek:

Ive not added up my engine costs yet,but ive gotta be between 3 n 4K at the mo and i still needs dizzy(£300 Approx) oil system and cooling sytem and then tinware.........

add on my efi turbo set-up and then my gearbox..........i wont be far off your figure.....

at this point i am off to lie down in a dark room and take deep breaths lol lol


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25 Re: Big engine change? on 5/3/2012, 4:04 pm

bugjammin

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Shit!!!!!! 15k !!! I was saying 3k with the expectancy to be more like 5k in the end now I'm thinking it may be another year but I will keep hopeful.
I don't use as a daily it's more a weekend /nice weather motor. Will take this all into consideration an going to write a list of what I need/ want and see where I am at.
Will keep posted but all help much appreciated fellas

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